The truth about 802.11n, 2.4Ghz and 5.8Ghz

19 September 2009

wireless-networking-tips[1] The odds are that your brand new 802.11n Draft N wireless router may get the same or worse signal than your previous "G" or even "B" setup.  The odds are you are not getting a 5Ghz device, even though you see “Dual Band” and 802.11N plastered all over the box.  So let me take a few minutes to explain the truth behind all of this Wireless 802.11n buzz and why most consumers are not exactly getting what they paid for; but, with a little careful planning ahead of time and some special configurations you can make the most out of the hardware you acquired.  I apologize for sitting on this knowledge for years and not blogging about it earlier, so let me make the wait worth while.

802.11n Dual Radio

For those that want and answer right away, you will want to invest $200 into a “Dual Radio” 802.11n router and not a “Dual Band”.  Dual Radio means your router can operate up, away from the interference, in the 5.8Ghz frequency.  There are dozens of “dual band” 802.11n routers out there, but only a select few of dual radio.

What is the truth behind 2.4Ghz and 5.8Ghz, besides radio bands?

To quickly sum up, this 802.11b/g 2.4Ghz frequency is flooded from all sorts of cordless device.  From microwaves to cordless phones.  But note that 802.11a over 5.8ghz was golden from day one without any of this fuss.  Now that I have teased you with the interference and bands, let us drive into why all of this matters with 802.11n.

With the mass proliferation of consumer electronics (cordless phones, remote control devices, etc), the FCC approved the radio frequency of 2.4Ghz for up to 1000Mbps to be opened up to consumer-grade electronics in the 90s, across a wide range of bandwidths.  I followed the HomeRF Working Group talks (now disbanded though) when they were creating the specifications for home networking across a local area network (LAN), wirelessly, in the 90s.  Their standard basically outlined a "Frequency Hopping" protocol that would allow a device to operate on multiple channels, similar to how cordless phones work and how they can "change channels" when there is interference.  They were responsible for your 802.11b (2.4Ghz) and 802.11a (5Ghz) standards.

In September 2000 the FCC ruled to approve HomeRF requests to increase the bandwidth of 802.11b devices over the 2.4Ghz RF band spectrum to 5Mhz, but with a very limited number of 15 channels and only a maximum of 11Mbps.  I believe the FCC did this because of Bluetooth's (and many other company's) arguments that allowing 802.11b devices to utilize a higher bandwidth would cause massive interference amongst other consumer devices. 

802.11a/b/g/n differences

Here is a quick summery of the history of the IEEE 802.11 standards we have had available at this point. 

  • 802.11b - Rated at 11mbps over a 2.4Ghz frequency for the 1Mhz and 5Mhz spectrums, it was the first widely adopted standard.
  • 802.11a - The need for more speed drove the 802.11a standard at the much higher 5.8Ghz frequency. 
  • 802.11g - The one we mostly know these days operating in the 2.4Ghz frequency with additional channels over 802.11b.
  • 802.11n - Operates at both 2.4Ghz and 5.8Ghz.  The new Draft 2.0 forced operation at 2.4Ghz by 'default'.  More on this later.

Note that there an 802.11y specification floating around which operates at 3.7Ghz.  The advantage of this specification is its massive range - over 5000 Meters (about 3 miles!).  You may hear more about this later on in the news.

Why you should care about 802.11-whatever and their differences.

You see, we have had the technology for 802.11n for a while with 802.11a.  Why did it not succeed?  The 802.11b devices at 2.4Ghz were massively produced, and were cheap. 802.11a devices, while about the same price, operated only at 5.8Ghz and came to the market too late because everyone else had 802.11b in their laptops, homes, and offices.  If you had an "A", you couldn't connect to "B".  And vice versa.  This is why "A" died out, even though it was a better technology.

The 802.11g 2.4Ghz standard in 2003 fixed the interference issues with more channels, hoping to get out of the range of other consumer electronics while staying in the cheaper-to-produce-products 2.4Ghz range.  But sadly this is not the case any longer since 1000s of wireless devices now use this “wide open” 2.4Ghz frequency and 1 Mhz and 5 Mhz spectrums.

The 802.11n specification had a great opportunity to fix this interference by going up to 5.8Ghz, once and for all.  All the while allowing for backwards compatibility, which is important for products to succeed.  In a way they did, but for double the cost.

The reason you get low signals with "G" and now "N" these days.

Note that if you live out in open rural or large lands, you will not see the problems.  But the vast majority of us have a neighbor within 100 feet of our home (or dozens in an urban environment).

With population comes more wifi devices.  Since there are only 11 channels available in “G”, and there are dozens of wifi devices near you, how much will you bet that there will be a high level of interferance?  A lot as it turns out.

I myself had to deal with this recently with our loft in downtown Dallas.  Opening a wifi scanner, I saw 31 wireless networks, and I could hardly ever use 802.11g in my open home.  Asking the neighbors, they all had issues “getting a router that works, they are all junk.”  Well, it wasn’t the router.  But instead, just the large number of wireless networks near by.

Once I upgraded to the Linksys WRT600N (with dual radios), I was solid!

Dual Radios vs Dual Channel vs Dual Mode vs Dual Band vs MIMO (The Marketing buzz-words)

Finally, the nit-n-gritty of this post.  I will say it loud and clear:

Stay away from dual channel devices and only get a two radio device!

What is dual-two-huh?  It is simple: To operate a device at a frequency of, say, 2.4Ghz, you need a RF radio to broadcast and receive at that frequency.  To operate at 5.8Ghz, you need a RF radio as well.  To operate at both frequencies (sometimes called Dual Channel or Dual Mode), your radio switches from 2.4Ghz to 5Ghz.  But the limiting factor here is a RF radio can only operate in one mode or the other.  Not both at the same time.  These dual channel/dual mode devices have a history of “cutting out” when mixed G and N devices are connected.  It is better to operate them at 2.4Ghz at all times.

How do you operate at both channels?  Simple, you have two radios: one at 2.4Ghz and the other at 5.8Ghz.

The biggest buzz is that 802.11n specifications allow it to operate at either 2.4Ghz or 5.8Ghz.  This allows you to run at 2.4Ghz and connect all of your 802.11g devices as well as 802.11n devices. 

Why do I need to operate at both channels or even 2.4Ghz?  Can't I just use 5.8Ghz?

Good question and this is where a little preparation of selecting the right devices comes into play.  If your home has all 802.11n devices (laptops, Xbox/PS3 wifi adapters, desktop, friends and family visiting over Christmas, etc), then yes you can get one of the cheaper 802.11n routers with "Dual Channels" and setup your 802.11n network for strict 5.8Ghz mode.

Unfortunately, most homes will need 802.11g backwards compatibility.  Your son's friend might stop by with his 802.11g laptop.  Xbox only has an 802.11g wifi adapter (that I know of).  And 100s of other reasons of why you still need 802.11g backwards compatibility.

These cheap "dual mode" or "dual channel" 802.11n devices is what will hurt you.  You will be forced to operate at only the 2.4Ghz band for 802.11n to allow other 802.11g devices to connect, which opens you up to interference from all other consumer electronics on your area.

And now why you want to pay the extra $80 for a dual radio 802.11n device.

It allows you to connect your laptops and other devices at 802.11a/n over one radio configured at 5.8Ghz, while supplying the 802.11g/n channel over the more interference-prone 2.4Ghz radio.  That is it.  It simply isolates you at one radio.  This allows your visitors to connect at 2.4Ghz, given not a stable connection in urban America but better than nothing.

The downside to 5.8Ghz, objects.

There is always a catch, right?  The 5.8Ghz range of 802.11a and 802.11n are more susceptible to solid devices (i.e. walls, floors, etc).  Even though the 802.11a/n standard allows for further range, the 5.8Ghz frequency is quickly blocked by solid objects, severely cutting down your range. 

As a comparison, take a loud car stereo.  The bass blasting from a neighbor’s car stereo next door, or in the car next to you.  How come you hear the thump thump thump of the subwoofer, but you do not hear the 500W he is pushing to his vocals through your windows or walls (or, they are severely muffled)?  Simple, the sound waves of low frequencies are much longer/further apart and usually carry more power.  This allows for the sound wave to move through solid devices, where higher frequencies are blocked because of the very short and quick sound waves and lower power.  Same applies to the 5.8Ghz range of 802.11a and 802.11n devices.

If you have a 3 level home (like we do), placing the 5.8Ghz device on the middle floor is usually best.  But, could still cause problems just a short distance away, on another floor.  This is where 2.4Ghz might actually be your best bet in your house.

Optimizing your 802.11n Router

For those that remain with the dual-band router, or decide that 2.4 Ghz is the best choice due to interference of objects, or want to tweak that 2.4 Ghz channel, you can make sure to optimize the settings to get the most out of the router - as most router's defaults are "fail safe", and not optimum.

802.11n includes a protocol for "Wide" channels.  The default freq and speed for 802.11n is 20 Mhz and 130 Mbps.  While a major increase over the previous 54 Mbps cap of 802.11g, it's only half of what the router can actually do.  Switching to "40 Mhz", otherwise known as "Wide Channel", you double your speeds up to around 270 Mbps.

There's a catch though.  Bluetooth devices usually operate in the 40 Mhz range of the 2.4 Ghz channel as it really is an unlicensed data range - this is why a lot of devices clash when you get "out of spec."

So, in short, if you don't have any bluetooth devices, then set it to 40 Mhz and be happy.  Your older 802.11g devices should still work as well.  But, to each his own - it may take testing that Xbox or other wifi devices to make sure they can still connect at the older 20 Mhz freq when you have set 40 Mhz (the protocol allows for backwards compatibility).

802.11n 5.8 Ghz Summary

In closing, the FCC did a bad thing when it opened 2.4Ghz 1Mhz and 5Mhz spectrums to consumer devices – besides just routers.  This has caused great interference and frustration of thousands of people world wide (cause most of the world adopted the same standards).  So our beloved 802.11g routers are now being lost in the noise, literally! 

So, look for those 802.11a/n/g dual-radio devices, and not a dual-band, dual-channel, dual-mode. 

Personally, I run my 2.4 Ghz and 5.8 Ghz radios at 40 Mhz and with different SSIDs (the wifi "name" or identifier), so I know which one I am connected to.  I also have a separate 802.11g device to power those older wifi devices on a 3rd SSID (good ol' Linksys WRT54G running the Tomato firmware) .

Please leave feedback about any issues or questions.

 
Reader's Comments
 
 
Kebabbert said:
22 October 09 8:10 AM

Just to confirm:

Dual channel device

1) Use 2.4GHz or 5GHz, but not both simultaneously

Dual radio devices

2) Use 2.4GHz and 5GHz simultaneously

So the point with your recommendation 2) is that you can use both channels simultaneously? Is that so? So the Linksys WRT610N is dual radio device?

 
22 October 09 10:24 AM

@Kebabbert: Yes, Exactly!  The WRT610N is a perfect choice (and my preference when I need to buy another one).  When Cisco bought-out Linksys, they discontinued my WRT600N.  Actually, they killed the entire product line using that hardware.  Finally, Cisco saw the QA issues at Linksys and decided to outsource all of the routers to a different supplier - which now gives you the WRT310N (a dual-channel device) and the WRT610N (a dual-radio device).

Also, I recommend operating the WRT610N on two different SSIDs: one for your 2.4Ghz devices, and one for your 5.8Ghz instead of mixing.  When you mix, you leave it up to your wifi card's drivers to decide on what frequency to use and what channel.  I'd rather have faith knowing exactly which freq. I was connected to, especially when in line-of-sight of the 5.8Ghz device, or if I am on a different floor/room.

 
Gavin said:
28 October 09 7:55 PM

Great info.  Thanks.

 
Mauricio said:
02 November 09 5:24 PM

Eric :

I keep reading horrible user stories about the Linksys WRT610N.

Take a look at the user reviews on either Best Buy or CNETs websites, and let me know what you think.

Best Buy's WRT610N user reviews:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Linksys+-+Dual-Band+Wireless-N+Gigabit+Router+with+4-Port+Ethernet+Switch/8892335.p?skuId=8892335&id=1215819613183#tabbed-customerreviews

CNet user reviews:

http://reviews.cnet.com/routers/linksys-wrt610n-simultaneous-dual/4852-3319_7-33132573.html?tag=mncol;psum

 
02 November 09 8:38 PM

@Mauricio: I hear your concerns.  A lot of users expect too much out of the WRT610N, that it will be the answer to their prayers.  

As mentioned in the post above, 802.11n over 5.8Ghz is horrible with lots of solid objects (walls, multiple floors, etc).

Also, I have noticed that a lot of users tend to set both radios to the same SSID.  This is bad, as the default for 802.11n is to default to the 2.4Ghz radio - therefore not getting the benefits of the 5.8Ghz clearer range.  I'll update my post to reflect that little tid bit, or make another post about optimizing your dual-radio router.  But more or less, suffix the 5.8Ghz radio's SSID with something like (5Ghz).  Makes it easy to know which is which that you are connected to as well.

Those are the two biggest issues users face, and have complained about, and most do not know how to configure around those issues (for example, don't waste money on a dual-radio if you going to placing it two floors up, or at the far edge of the house of where you will be working at the other end).  

I also read deep dive reviews where they tore apart the WRT600N and WRT610N to compare them inside and out, as well as free air tests of both radios.  The WRT610N scores quite high, if not the highest, out of the dual-radio routers on the market as of this posting.

 
jim said:
03 November 09 8:29 PM

Great article.

But if lower frequencies have a longer wavelength, why is the 3.7Ghz range listed at 3 miles?  Wouldn't it be shorter than 2.4 and longer than 5.8?

 
03 November 09 9:18 PM

@Jim: Excellent question.  It is because the 802.11y specification is more for high-powered base stations (i.e. cell tower-like broadcast centers), that are allowed to use much more power than our punity consumer devices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11y

 
Kyle said:
04 November 09 2:33 AM

Great article and answered the questioned I googled. I do have a question I want to clear up: will wireless N run at "wireless n speed" the same on 2.4 ghz as it would on 5 ghz givin that the area the devices are being used on is uncluttered with interference?

 
04 November 09 10:31 AM

@Kyle: Thanks for the props.  To answer your question, Yes.  The spec for 802.11n is up to 270 Mbps over either radio 2.4Ghz and 5.8Ghz).  Note though that most switches/hubs are only 100 Mbps!  So, it may be time to upgrade the rest of your network.

I have only been able to achieve these 270 Mbps connections by setting the radios to a "Wide Channel" though.  Leaving them on Auto doesn't seem to give me more than 130 Mbps.  

 
Jeff said:
22 November 09 5:40 PM

This is a great write-up on the various 802.11 standards.  But I would recommend the following.

1) Single channel 5Ghz 802.11n router if you don't need 2.4Ghz support and have problems streaming HD video or accessing/copying large files via PC to PC using LAN wifi.

2) Single channel 2.4Ghz 802.11a/b/g/n router if your dwelling has 3+ floors or lots of walls to go through.

A 2.4Ghz router will work in an urban setting but requires that you have a router that gives a strong signal and is confiured correctly (requires features that not all routers have).  The 802.11n standard is still "draft" and for that reason I really can't see people investing the money for 5Ghz routers unless they have problems obtaining top speeds (mainy for HD streaming and large file PC to PC wifi copying/access).  Otherwise a good 802.11a/b/g/n 2.4Ghz router should handle all that anyone needs.  The router I would recommend for people to get is the D-Link DIR-655.  But spend some time configuring it so you get the max. out of it.

 
22 November 09 9:52 PM

@Jeff: Technically, 802.11a is only 5.8 Ghz.  This is why you would need a dual-radio router to achieve "a" connections.

Yes, for lots of walls/floors, that's where the 2.4Ghz has an advantage.  But if you live, say, in Brooklyn where your neighbors are within 20', putting multiple 5.8Ghz is your best bet to have the cleanest signal across multiple floors.

As for the D-Link you mentioned, I do NOT recommend that model.  It's only a single radio device, which my post above shows you why that's a bad idea in conjested neighborhoods/dwellings.  You can only obtain 2.4Ghz freq, never a single 5.8Ghz connection.

 
Troy said:
24 November 09 11:24 AM

Very good article and comments. I live in a older refurbished farmhouse that is 2 stories. I am constantly struggling with WiFi signal. I own a Linksys WRT 400N router. I have been fairly pleased with its performance until i read your article. I took your advice an the advice in some of the comments. Disabled the 5ghz band cause it was only slowing the other band down. Next i changed the channel width and the broadcast channel from auto to the highest speed available (2.462ghz) Now i get much better signal strength and an increase in speed from 130mbs to 270mbs. Thanks a lot for your help.  

 
24 November 09 12:41 PM

@Troy: Excellent to hear!  Yep, sometimes 2.4Ghz is the way to go.  :)  

 
Jimmy G. said:
09 December 09 9:13 PM

One thing to keep in mind... the WRT610N is a router-not a gateway.  If you have a DSL gateway like most telco customers, you'll need to buy a modem (actually a bridge).

 
Kiem said:
13 April 10 10:37 PM

Great information.  Well explained for non technical person.

 
Ken said:
10 September 10 2:12 PM

This is a fantastic article!  Clearly written and with tons of solid content.

 
Sal said:
15 October 10 6:25 PM

i have a dlink dir615 router but when i select the 5.2ghz it will not connect i can get it to connect to 2.4ghz and i can sometimes get 300mbps which is excellent but just wanted to see what the 5.2ghz gave me  is my router compatible for 5.2ghz or is there something im not doing right regards Sal

 
15 October 10 7:30 PM

@Sal:

I've been seeing a growing trend that client wireless cards in laptops and minis are only 2.4 Ghz.  That kind of sucks.  I would investigate into what kind of wireless card you have in your computers to see if it supprots 5.4Ghz.

Other than that, try updating firmware - of both the router and the wireless card (you can get firmward by finding the maker of your wireless card).

 
Jeff said:
15 November 10 10:57 AM

I have been searching for a couple of weeks to find an article like this. Thank you.

There are still a couple of things that are unclear to me. I have an ADSL modem that operates my wireless network at 802.11g. My PS3 and Wii are also 802.11g (I have not seen any 802.11n adapters for them), so I am stuck using 802.11g/2.4GHz for the foreseeable future.

I have to upgrade my laptop, so I would like to ensure it has a 802.11n wireless adapter, and then get a 802.11n router to connect to my ADSL modem.

In my circumstances, I "think" I just need a 802.11n router operating at 5.8GHz. Then I effectively have two radios. I do not need dual band/dual mode/dual anything.

Does that sound right to you?

 
15 November 10 12:04 PM

@Jeff:  Dammit.  And I tried so hard to target SEO keywords.  Just curious, did you find this through Google or Bing?  Bing seems to respond better to abstract keywords.

Yes, that sounds right - continue to use the ADSL Router/Modem combo for your 802.11g devices.  And you can use the 5.8 Ghz range for your laptop.  Just be aware of the interference from walls and floors (solid objects).  

Most laptops these have 802.11n, but I've started to notice newer 802.11n cards that do NOT connect at 5.8 Ghz - they are only 2.4 Ghz.  This is very sad, as it is very difficult to know if a wireless card that has 802.11n will connect to both radios now.  In the past, they all worked fine on either radio.  But this more recent findings that some cards do not do 5.8 Ghz kind of sucks.

Tip: you get lag over wireless for gaming.  Consider running an RJ45 to the TV area, and use a "Gigabit Switch" to connect your PS3 and Wii.

 
Jeff said:
15 November 10 2:22 PM

Thanks for the quick reply. I looked for this information through Google. I thought I had tried every search combination over the past couple of weeks, but something in the search I chose (now forgotten, but I think it had 802.11n and 2.4GHz in it) finally connected me with your site.

As for your comment on network adapters, quite right. It seems as if the default wireless adapter for a lot of laptops with 802.11n adapters is just 2.4GHz, and you have to do some digging to find that out.

A tip I read elsewhere said that if the adapter is described as b/g/n rather than a/b/g/n (or something else with an "a" in it), it will only connect at 2.4GHz. Only adapters that includee the magic "a" will connect at 5.8GHz (or so I have read).

As for running an RJ45, why would I bother? If I am only getting 6-7MB/s through my Internet ADSL, I am already well under the 50-ish MB/s I get with 802.11g. The reason I want the 802.11n connection is to increase the speed when accessing from a network attached drive (yet another thing I am trying to research, if you have any advice!)

 
15 November 10 2:44 PM

@Jeff: That is an EXCELLENT tip!  802.11a, or the "a" you mentioned, is ONLY 5.8Ghz.  That's such a simple thing to note and thank you for telling us.  It makes perfect sense.  If you see a/b/g/n, then  you know it can do 5.8Ghz.  If only b/g/n, then not.  

The RJ45 (or cat5) cable was recommended to get lower response times, besides bandwidth.  You are correct, you won't get any more speed - but your latency will drop from 400ms or so to around 50ms - far better for online gaming or "lag".

 
Jim said:
10 December 10 7:08 PM

I have read several places that in order to get full 300 Mbps, you must use WPK2 w/ AES encryption. If you use any other encryption, you will only get 54 Mbps of throughput no matter what.

 
10 December 10 11:13 PM

@Jim: That's simply not true at all.  I've setup Public (no encryption) networks that connected at 270Mpbs (270Mbps is the max btw, not 300Mbps - kind of like how 1 MB really equals 1024 KB).

It all comes down to rather both the router and the card support the "wide" channels.  Which are the "40 Mhz" channels, which are NOT enabled by default.

Another thing I have found out, especially with Dell laptops, is the Dell drivers only connect at 54 Mbps no matter what.  I have 3 laptops!  And on each and every one of them, the Dell drivers only connect at 54 Mbps.  I have to delete the driver (and check the box to make sure it deletes the software), then let WIndows find the card itself and install it's own Microsoft version.  Then I get 270 Mbps.  I know, I just did it again the other day when I formatted a laptop (last week actually).

 
Matt Arnold said:
20 December 10 11:25 PM

Another way it is stated is "Simultaneous Dual Band" That is what it shows on the router I just got, and it works with all our devices at the same time.

 
21 December 10 11:54 AM

@Matt: Yep, this was written a year or two ago.  I am sure they have came out with additional 'marketing keywords' since then.

"Simultaneous Dual Band" is not what I recommend, as it means just a single radio.  THis post outlines the needs for dual-radio devices, not single-radio.  

For example, LinkSys "dual radio" devices start in the 500 number series.  Anything lower is just a single radio, like the WRT400N. (Which is advertised as "Simultaneous Dual Band.")

 
Fisslefink said:
25 January 11 1:44 PM

Amazing post, Eric. Still the best guide I could find in 2011!

I just wanted to mention that there is a cheap option for those not willing to splurge on a dual-radio device (they are still quite expensive).  The idea is, if you have an old 802.11g router that you plan to replace, DON'T THROW IT AWAY.  Instead, use it for your 2.4Ghz devices, and restrict the 802.11n router to the 5.8Ghz spectrum.  The trick is to make the old router an "access point" and hook it up as a client of the new router. This way, everybody is on the same network.

My setup at home is as follows:

- Linksys WRT310N (dual-band capable, but single-radio) in 5ghz-only mode, 40 MHz width.  This is in default mode in terms of the router table.  It dishes out IP addresses by DHCP as usual.  The WAN port is hooked up to m cable modem.  SSID=FastHookup

- Belkin 802.11g router (old!).  This is in "Access Point" mode which means the DHCP server is disabled. Be sure to give it a static IP address, and configure the encryption + SSID *before* you turn on Access Point mode, or you won't see it on your network. The WAN port of the old router is hooked up to any of the 4 INTRAnet (LAN) ports of the new router.  It is basically a slave, dishing out 2.4Ghz WiFi, but nothing else. SSID=SlowHookup (NOTE:  this is not the same as the SSID above!)

One less box in the landfill, and I saved $80.  Good luck all!

 
25 January 11 4:00 PM

@Fisslefink: I completely agree!  Keep the old router and use it as a repeater or another branch of the same network.

And you did it correctly by making two different SSIDs, so they show up differently in the house.

I personally use my trusty old WRT54G router that I have running Tomato's firmware (http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato).  It's verys imilar to DD-WRT, just much more user friendly.  

Also, Tomato has better QoS features than DD-WRT.  So, I actually use the WRT54G router as my "internet router" - the gateway to my internet provider.  The only trouble with that is it is only 100 Mbps.  While I have 50 Mbps down right now through Verizon FiOS (love it!), another provider locally is offering 100 Mbps down - and the WRT54G wouldn't be up for that task.  But for right now, it's just fine.

 
Trailrunner said:
06 May 11 1:29 PM

Great article and comments. I feel like I now have the info I need to fix my slow wireless home network.

Any suggestions on how to create a home network that has two or three subnets? I'd like my computers to be separated from the kids xbox and their friend's computers when they come to visit. I have a cable modem with a single IP address and then a WRT54G behind that. Next I'll be adding a dual radio model as suggested above.

 
06 May 11 2:07 PM

@Trailrunner: Sounds like an advanced setup.  The good news is you have the perfect pieces to do just that!

Your Linksys WRT45G has been hacked to run many different, and powerful, versions of firmware.  I myself use my old WRT54G v3.3 at the head of my network, connected to my FiOS connection.

When you get a dual radio version, you just want to connect it behind your existing WRT54G - using both routers.  That keeps your newer dual radio isolated from the older WRT54G network you setup.  All on different SSIDs.

If you load one specific firmware, called DD-WRT (www.dd-wrt.org), you have even more options.  DD-WRT supports "Virtual VLANs" for each network.  You can setup all 3 "isolated" subnets as you want using a single router with DD-WRT installed on it.  And, DD-WRT was first created to support the WRT54G - so it's 100% supported, fyi.

Just, that configuration of isolated subnets can be a bitch.  You'll have to do a lot of editing to the firewall and route tables (it's Linux afterall).  If you are comfortable going that far, then DD-WRT sounds like a winner for you.

If that sounds too much, then stick to the simple WRT54G as your head-router/gateway, let their friend's connect to that 802.11g SSID, and use your new dual radio router behind it for your personal stuff.  

The catch there is, the packets can still be  sniffed.  So if your kids have some shady hacker friends, then switch routers - put the dual-radio as your head device connected to the cable modem, and connect the old WRT54G WAN to router, and let their friends connect to the WRT54G.  That completely isolates the subnets, going through two NATs and all.

Just remember, set different SSIDs and make sure the channels are set not to overlap.  

Good one!

 
06 May 11 2:09 PM

@Trailrunner: Forgot to mention, as I said in the article above, I run the Tomato firmware on my WRT54G router.  It's really easy and simple to use.  It's just you don't get any virtual LANs, but you wouldn't need that if you do the last setup as I mentioned above.

 
Trailrunner said:
07 May 11 2:10 PM

@Eric says "The catch there is, the packets can still be  sniffed."

Does this applby to the VLAN solution too or just when using the WRT54G as the head-router with the new dual radio router behind it.

 
07 May 11 3:19 PM

To make it not apply to the VLAN takes a good amoutn of configuration of the linux firewall and nat allowances.  And while I'm decent at programming those, I wouldn't attempt to do it again - just a lot of work.

You want your visitors to use the WRT54G, since it only does 802.11g.  You want to reserve the newer router for your stuff.  Don't worry about seperating the Xbox from your stuff - unless you have 50 or 60 client computers, nothing is going to affect that in speed.  You'll be fine.

Just sounds like you want to isolate your visitors to use a protected subnet, which would be the WRT54G connected to your new router, while the new router is connected to the cable modem.

There are other options to.   LIke using a dual radio router on multiple subnets with DD-WRT and alike.  That's all beyond what I can help you with here.  

THe forums at DD-WRT.org would be the source for VLans on the WRT54G and/or new router with DD-WRT loaded on it, and isolating the packets between them.

Just saying, the easiest thing to do would be to connect the new router to the cable modem, and the WRT54G to it - and setup the WRT54G for the visitors.

 
Trailrunner said:
07 May 11 4:40 PM

Thanks for the quick answers. I'll give it a try. I just hope the the E4200 doesn't have any exploits that would allow a user on the WRT54G to sniff packets from the E4200's main network.

 
Trailrunner said:
07 May 11 8:34 PM

Note - one of the guys in my neighborhood says its not safe to have the visitor router connected to the home router because the visitors could be infected with malware that could inject itself into the home network. He suggested going with a 3 router solution (one to connect to the cable modem and then one for the home network and one for the visitor network).

 
07 May 11 10:39 PM

@Trailrunner: True, didn't think about it spreading to your own machines.  

Stick the visitor router connected to the cable model.  And connect your new router to that router.

You'll be protected behind the NAT of the 2nd router.

 
Trailrunner said:
08 May 11 12:40 PM

Note - if the home router lives behind the visitor router then clients on the visitor router may be able to sniff the outbound home router traffic. Plus, that config won't work well if you want to block specific ports on the visitor router (I am only opening ports for specific games).

 
Cathie said:
29 May 11 11:20 PM

Found your post with the google search "wifi n and 5.8 ghz cordless phones", great article and comments!  After years of side-stepping WIFI, I am now forced to adopt it into my home network.  Do you think I can use the 802.11a specification with my 5.8 Ghz cordless phone?  Thank you for your time.

 
30 May 11 9:06 AM

@Cathie:

Good question.  I would try to use 802.11n over 5.8 Ghz first, as it has a wider range of channels.  802.11a is 10 year old technology, and also limited in speed.

Just make sure the wifi cards you get for the laptops/desktops "support" 802.11a <- the "a" being important as it indicates the card supports 5.8 Ghz.  Without the 'a', most likely the card only supports 2.4 Ghz.  

As mentioned in the comments, there is an increasing number of cards that only support 2.4 Ghz.  The way to identify these inferior cards is to look for the "a" in the 802.11 a/b/g/n specification.  If it says 802.11 b/g/n, skip it and fine one with 'a'.

Good luck!

 
Mandeep said:
20 October 11 1:55 PM

Hi Eric What about the Netgear WNDR3700 router? Is this router a good dual band router?

 
20 October 11 3:37 PM

@Mandeep:

Well, it's not a "dual radio" as I've mentioned in this article.  I've listed above the downsides to "Dual Bands" and to avoid them.

 
Loboron said:
19 November 11 3:45 PM

Eric-

Like everyone else it took me a while to find you, and your information is priceless. You answer many questions my Router/repeater/extender folks couldn't, and the reason I have so much money invested and still have poor results for the dollars.

Thank you for taking the time to post this valuable information.

My problem is getting quality, uninterrupted signal throughout my 3 story home.

I live in a neighborhood where I can see 18 SSID's on my laptop signal bars as well as when I program my wireless bridges. Based on what you wrote I have a lot of "Noise" & interference. I know now that's the problem because the signals from my repeater drop during peak hours, early morning and late afternoon.

My DSL modem and new wireless router are on the bottom floor. My repeater is located on the second floor, and my laptop, and wireless bridge that supplies the signal for the FTA receiver for my TV ( I live in Mexico) is on the top floor.I have a wireless bridge on all 3 floors for the receivers.

I'm 70 years old and retired of course, and TV is important, sports for me and soap operas for the wife. I'd like a recommendation of which 5.8 freq. systems I need to purchase to get me up and running without outside interference,i.e. Router, repeater. My wifi bridges are Vonets.

Once again thank you for the informative article.

Ron

 
20 November 11 10:41 PM

@Loboron:

Why thank you very much for the compliments!  I wish you had left an email address, to reply directly.  But here's to hoping you come back to see my reply...

18 SSIDs is a bit cluttered.  The 3 story house makes it even more complicated.  

You are doing exactly right by having multiple devices, one on each floor.  I am assuming you have set them up properly on the "same" SSID, but "different" channels, correct?  If they all shared the same channel, then that would be a problem.

How are the repeaters connected?  Are they being used to extend the existing wireless signal?  Or, are they connected via RJ45 (cable) to a common switch somewhere in the house?

I ask because extending a wireless signal like that across multiple floors works best over 2.4 Ghz, not 5.8 Ghz.  Which, it sounds like you are setup for (since u are asking for 5.8).

My advice would be to hardwire each repeater with RJ45 to a common switch in the house.  Trying to extend a signal of a signal of a signal won't give the best results.

Another thing to be concerned with is frequency hopping: having the devices on different channels but the same SSID.  While this is the preferred method for your setup, it can cause issues with streaming devices: like your "FTA receiver" or any device that wants to tream.  Frequency hopping easily breaks the connection and rejoins on a different channel, but same SSID.  

I would advice on a single dedicated 5.8 Ghz router on the same floor as your streaming device: e.g. TV, and connect it to that on a different SSID, isolated from your existing network.  

As far as which 5.8 Ghz device to get, I don't know... My 5 year old WRT600N is going strong.  Some others have purchased the WRT610N/E3000 and had great success (dual radio device).  All of those are N/A at this point.  The E4200 seems to be what replaced the E3000.  The main difference that I can find is the CPU in the E3000 controls the 5.8Ghz radio (the 2.4 Ghz radio is merged in).  While the E4200's CPU controls the 2.4 Ghz band, and the 5.8 Ghz is merged in.  This means better 2.4 Ghz performance being native to the CPU, but sub-par 5.8 Ghz performance.  In other words, the old WRT600 and WRT610/E3000 routers (same device) seem to be king still.

Good luck on your adventure!  I'd concentrate on running cables to each floor.

 
Loboron said:
21 November 11 10:58 AM

Eric-

Thank you for the extended reply and information. Want a job?

Albeit running wires to each unit would be ideal, it's also impossible here without spending many $$$. As I mentioned earlier, I live in Mexico, my home's outside walls are block and all the rooms are aluminum framed. This is why I have so much wireless to get from room to room.

Here's my current setup, perhaps it will give you a better picture and you could offer some modifications to improve it.

Bottom floor:

Location of ISP modem ( which is the only area available)and is hard wired to my wireless router.

Second Floor:

Location of the wireless Dual radio repeater which is hard wired to an FTA receiver.

Third floor:

Location of my laptop and another FTA receiver with Vonet wireless bridge, both receiving the signal from the repeater on the second floor.

The two main issues I have is, #1. the repeater often drops the signal from the router. The router is no more than 30 feet and almost in line of sight from the repeater. No obstructions. It will work great for a day or two and then no sending signal registered on the repeater.It will show receiving the signal from the router all the time. I unplug the repeater for a few seconds and it will work again for a day or so, then I have to repeat the process again.

#2. When the repeater is working OK and I have the signal on the third floor, the wireless bridge will show the signal strength at 80% one day and the next it will be at 30% and of course my laptop and FTA receiver drop off line as the signal is to weak.

There's never a physical change, e.g. doors closing, or new obstructions. I'm told it's interference from neighbors as this occurs mainly during afternoon/evening hours?? Very frustrating.

With regards to channels, my ISP modem and wireless router are on different channels, 6 & 11 respectfully. The repeater can't be programed, it scans, however the bridge reads it as being on channel #1 or #2 when I check it.

The SSID's are all stock names, Router 150N and the repeater is Smart repeater.

Thank you again for your time and patience.

Ron

 
28 November 11 11:31 PM

@Loboron: It sounds like you have everything pretty much covered.  On different channels, dual radio repeater, etc.  Yes, at busy times there are more wifi signals and causes the signal strength to lower.

It doesn't sound like much you can to improve things over what you got.  Except maybe replacing all devices with 5.8 Ghz units, but that is $$$ and not guaranteed to work with the metal contruction you have.  Even though, things could still drop.

Try going down to the 2.4 Ghz range for everything, and move the repeater to the 3rd floor to directly connect to the other devices.  E.g. skipping the 2nd floor.  

Your FTA receiver will be just fine without it for a few days (just uses it for channel lookups, right?).

At this point, it's just experimenting.  The 5.8 Ghz band may not be best for you with the multi-level home and metal constructions.  Try things out at 2.4 Ghz.

As for reliability in your kind of setup, unless you go with a commercial units, I doubt any repeater/bridge combo is going to work without issues.  It really may be time to run those cables along the floors.

Well, another option is to try Ethernet Over power.  They plug into your power outlets, but allows you to transmit ethernet (network) over your power lines to another room.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=powerline&x=0&y=0

I have no idea what a/c outlets Mexico uses though.

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